links:
www.politikforum.de
www.telepolis.de
www.freace.de
raeds iraq blog
iraqi resistance
juan cole- the expert
riverbend blog
dear raed
mail to Salvador
ebaycom
Salvadors Blog
Donnerstag, Juni 16, 2005
Iraq discussion, part II
Thank you again for coming back here and going on with the discussion. Never had such a long "talk" with a soldier before.
To your points:
"I don't deny that there are obvious hidden agenda's and undeniable benefits for the US and various other "coaltion" countries to have a military presents in Iraq. And you're absolutley right in your observance of certain "developed" military bases throughout Iraq and Afghanistan."
Good to hear that from you, because the news- media nearly never talks about this issue. It seems not to be fitting into their frame.
"I'm not going to deny that colateral damage does not happen in war, unfortunately it does. Colateral damage, no matter how hard any tries, will unfortunately happen."
Yeah and this is the reason why war should be the last choice a gov makes. In my view, the Bush- gov did the opposite, starting the war while the UN WMD inspectors hadn't completed their task. If BushCo had waited, say 3 months, they would have known that there were NO usable WMDs left over in Saddams arsenal. But the point is, that they were never really interested in this so called "thread" and used it as smoke screen for their real agenda.
"I personaly have investigated one incident where an inocent Iraqi was wrongly killed, and I had to be the coordinating authority between the military and his family. That mission was one of the hardest emotionaly that I have had to endure. Being a part of something like that does make you question why you are performing a mission such as I was."
It must be a crazy and VERY bad feeling to be in such a situation... The sad fact is, that incidents like this happen every day in iraq, mostly not with ground troops involved, but though the fire from planes and helis. Whole families are killed in a second and according to Gen. Tommy Franks rules (We don`t do bodycounts) no one writes down how many innoncent civilians become victims.
"But, in the end I still honestly believe that what I am a part of is for the greater good of the entire Iraqi population. I have rebuilt countless schools for children, rebuilt a hospital, and rebuilt an entire village (about 3,000 people)."
I know that the US- forces are doing this, but in fact they destroy much more than they rebuild. And the most work is done not my military personal, but by corrupt contractors, letting the iraqi people pay the double or tripple price they should have to pay for something. I do believe that you are a person with the best intentions, but it is a little bit naive to think that the war and everything happened until now is "for the greater good" of iraqis... How many of them have died since March 20, 2003? How many were maimed? How many lost familie members? Whole cities were destroyed... The only way to transist this war into a good thing would be for the US to withdraw as soon as possible.
"I can say that you are going outside of your lane to imply that I am not a subject matter expert in the affairs that occured in my area. You have no basis for this comment other than you are "assuming" based off of your own interpretation of what you want to believe. I have infact been involved in countless political debates with not just "average" Iraqi's, but also with local government officials within the city of Baghdad. Yes, some of my interpreter's did attempt to tell me what they thought I wanted to hear and not what was actually being said. THose interpreter's were not used again. I had a select few that I would only use, one of which I am still in contact with. THese interpreter's relayed what was said, exactly. So, yes I am a "subject matter expert" in the area that I operated in and I full well now what the climate of the local populace of central Baghdad was when I was there just a few short months ago."
Was this a shiite area? Because if you were in Arimijah or western Bagdad, you would have had trouble just to talk with the people on the street... I am interested in the view of those people. What did they tell you? What was their point of view? Maybe I was a little bit over the top doubting that you are an expert for iraq, but everything I ever heard of US troops in iraq tell me that most soldiers have really no clue what is going on in the heads of iraqis. And don`t forget the propaganda they are telling you to pepp you up and to boost the moral...
"In regards to the elections, it was not the names of the people that were running for office that were with held from the populace, but that the majority of the people had never participated in an election of any type before and many of which could not read."
Sorry to correct you, but the candidates other than those on the top of the lists weren`t known until the last few days before the election. And what about central iraq? Many sunnis just copuldn`t vote because there were no polling centers. 3% of the people in Al Anbar province voted... Is this "democracy"? And again, don`t forget the role that the US is playing in iraqi politics, with the biggest embassy worldwide, the most powerfull CIA station since vietnam and all the money that the iraqis need and the US have.
"You said that the people voted the coalition out of their country. You would be wrong in that statement. THe people voted to elect a provisional government to draft a constitution. And to hold elections again in December (If I remember correctly) at the end of this year. That is exactly what the people did."
Oh, I think this is a missunderstanding from your side. I did`t want to say that the election was about US- removal. But the big iraqi parties, mostly the shiit Dawa and SCIRI, promised to push the US to withdraw. MANY iraqis came to the polls to vote for exactly this reason, just because, as I said before, nearly 70% of iraqis want the US out as soon as possible.
In behalf of the constitution and the next vote: You can bet that these two things are delayed a half year because the constitution commission started its work just a few days ago and it is impossible to form a constitution in 2 (timeline is in August)months. So the two votes will be half a year later on.
"But you need to understand that withdrawing from Iraq will take alot of time. Unfortunately we can't just pull-out over night. You can imagine what the environment could turn into if we pulle dout too quickly. I don't think that is a situation that any of us would want to have happen."
It would be possible to withdraw the troops if the US would pay troops under neutral UN command and from muslim countries (shia and sunni a like in a proportion that fits to the one in the iraqi population). Before this happens, the UN has to manage negotiations between the secular sunni insurgents and the iraqi gov and the shiit parties have to aknowledge that a fair ammount of oil money and political control is given to the sunni community. Many other steps are possible to start a new process without the smell of US- imperial dreams on them. But as long as Bush and his cronies are in power, no such thing will happen and the war will grind on.
"You spoke briefly about the Iraqi security forces treament of their detainee's. You would be correct in saying that their treatment is harsher than most. I have witnessed such abuse and have reported the incident through my chain of command. But, unfortunately due to the recent "hand-over-of-power" we were unable to intervene in a direct manner and stop the abuse from happening."
Yeah these thing are common in the new iraq, no good sign for freedom and democracy to come, huh? Thanks for the reading tip!
"I try to stay as objective as I can with my views, and I appreciate your comments. But, I am a firm believer in what I am apart of, I take the good with the bad and learn from each experiece as much as I can. The current war is definately a difficult situation, and I don't have the answers. But I can say that good things are happening there, whether we see them in the news or not. Unfortunately though, terrible things are still happening to many innocent Iraqi's."
I thank you a lot for your contribution, your thougths and your honesty. It is a good thing for me to speak with a person that has first hand experience with the war I criticize. Stay well, I hope you have not to go again to iraq!
Salvador
Comments:
Savador,
Good to hear from you, again you bring up some interesting points to consider. I am of the opinion that dialogue such as this between two people with such different views is a must if any of us are ever going to improve. I welcome your continued comments and views. I hope that my views and stories will help you to understand a different side of the Iraq story other than what most people are limited to seeing or hearing by the main stream media.
You asked if I was stationed in Western Baghdad, I was not (Western Baghdad being the "Greenzone" or West side of the Tigris River). I was stationed in Central Baghdad between the Tigris and Sadr City. This area is a mix of mostly Sunni and Shiite Arabs, there are smaller populations of Christian, Turk, Kurd, etc. I spent numerous outings engaged in political debates with numerous Arabs of various ethnicities. Typically speaking, Kurds and Shiite's were more supportive and appreciative of the coalitions presence in Iraq. In certain Sunni neighborhoods of Baghdad the population was also very supportive of the coalition and the new Iraqi government. But, one specific Sunni neighborhood always comes to mind that was especially harsh towards any kind of foreign force or presence in Iraq. One of the things that was difficult to get used to was the difference in atmospherics from one side of the road to the other. For example, in this specific neighborhood the Sunni's who lived on the South side of the street would have their own neighborhood watch and would share food with the U.S. soldiers whenever we came around. On the North side of the street, the Sunni's were very stand-offish and were always watching us with second guessing eyes. As if they were waiting for us to be attacked from the shadows, or if we were going to attack them. On one occassion while patroling the Northern side of the street, I stopped at a local tea vendor's stand to buy a glass of Chi-Tea and talk with the locals to get a "feel" for how things were going in the neighborhood. The conversation was going very well and I began to build a crowd of about 15 locals who were telling me about the various problems in the neighborhood, and what if any information about the elections was being put out to the people. After a few minutes of talking to the crowd, a man approached me and engaged in a political debate with me. It turns out that he was a professor of history at the Mustansiriyah University in Baghdad. The man was very hateful and unwilling to allow me to address any of the points that he was attempting to make. Once he started complaining to me about how the root of all of the evil in the world was due to the fault of the U.S. government, the crowd withdrew from conversation and changed it demeaner to very stand-offish again. I attempted to carry on a conversation with this History Professor for about 15-20 minutes before I had to leave. The debate was very frustrating because he was more or less trying to attack me verbally and vent infront of other people rather than try to communicate his issues in a constructive manner to where I could possibly help him. I ended the conversation after he began to tell me how stupid and idiotic I was for having to carry a firearm with me, and that that proved that I had no level of intelligence other than I just wanted to hurt people. That was a very frustrating meeting that I still remember very well, but I took from that everything positive that I could. Obviously the area needed more Civil type support to assist the people, but that also there were a few people in the area that were attempting to "sway" the atmospheric of the neighborhood towards a more violent relationship between the coaltion and the Iraqi's. This incident was the only verbal confrontation that I had during my 10 month stay in this section of Baghdad. The rest, I can say were more positive and all ended on good notes.
Typically speaking, the majority of Iraqi's that I met with were obviously upset about the slow pace of reconstruction efforts within their communities, and the slow workings of the Iraqi government. But, after I was able to spend some time with these people and walk them through the contract process, attitudes almost always changed. I also found, that most Iraqi's are unfamiliar with democratic principals. I found that one of Saddam's power tools was a lack of a good education available to the Iraqi people. With most people I had to explain basic democratic principals, such as; the citizens of a democratic nation have a voice or say in how they want their government to run, the people have the power in a true democracy. If you can imagine what it is like to try and explain a concept such as this to a people that have never been allowed to think for themselves, then you can imagine how difficult of a situation this was and still is.
And still even more Iraqi's have the percieved notion that once the coalition did over-throw Saddam's government that the country would magically be better. The reasoning behind this thought (as I was told on numerous occassions by various Iraqi's) is that because America is one of the wealthiest nations in the world and the "land of opportunity" that the U.S. Army would have billions of dollars immediately available to fix all of the infrastructure problems within Iraq. The problem that we ran into, was that the infrastructure was in such dire shape that we have to practically build new systems from scratch. Virtually all of the old or existing systems in place were irrepairable due to extreme negligence.
If I could give my opinion of how long it will be before things really start to make a turn for the better and the country starts to really move forward, I would have to say that we're about 10 years from a major change in the country. Right now we're working with people (adults) who have only experienced life under Saddam, how government works, how to deal with crime, etc. The real change, I think, will happen when the children have had an opportunity to learn and grow in a more opportunistic environment and begin to take over in the next 10 years or so. Unfortunately, I believe this to be a more realistic option than anything that I have seen presented by any of the world leaders or media. Everyone wants solutions to happen now, but now will only result in bandaid's that are only temporary. Leaving power vacuums for the next dictator to try and fill.
Good to hear from you, again you bring up some interesting points to consider. I am of the opinion that dialogue such as this between two people with such different views is a must if any of us are ever going to improve. I welcome your continued comments and views. I hope that my views and stories will help you to understand a different side of the Iraq story other than what most people are limited to seeing or hearing by the main stream media.
You asked if I was stationed in Western Baghdad, I was not (Western Baghdad being the "Greenzone" or West side of the Tigris River). I was stationed in Central Baghdad between the Tigris and Sadr City. This area is a mix of mostly Sunni and Shiite Arabs, there are smaller populations of Christian, Turk, Kurd, etc. I spent numerous outings engaged in political debates with numerous Arabs of various ethnicities. Typically speaking, Kurds and Shiite's were more supportive and appreciative of the coalitions presence in Iraq. In certain Sunni neighborhoods of Baghdad the population was also very supportive of the coalition and the new Iraqi government. But, one specific Sunni neighborhood always comes to mind that was especially harsh towards any kind of foreign force or presence in Iraq. One of the things that was difficult to get used to was the difference in atmospherics from one side of the road to the other. For example, in this specific neighborhood the Sunni's who lived on the South side of the street would have their own neighborhood watch and would share food with the U.S. soldiers whenever we came around. On the North side of the street, the Sunni's were very stand-offish and were always watching us with second guessing eyes. As if they were waiting for us to be attacked from the shadows, or if we were going to attack them. On one occassion while patroling the Northern side of the street, I stopped at a local tea vendor's stand to buy a glass of Chi-Tea and talk with the locals to get a "feel" for how things were going in the neighborhood. The conversation was going very well and I began to build a crowd of about 15 locals who were telling me about the various problems in the neighborhood, and what if any information about the elections was being put out to the people. After a few minutes of talking to the crowd, a man approached me and engaged in a political debate with me. It turns out that he was a professor of history at the Mustansiriyah University in Baghdad. The man was very hateful and unwilling to allow me to address any of the points that he was attempting to make. Once he started complaining to me about how the root of all of the evil in the world was due to the fault of the U.S. government, the crowd withdrew from conversation and changed it demeaner to very stand-offish again. I attempted to carry on a conversation with this History Professor for about 15-20 minutes before I had to leave. The debate was very frustrating because he was more or less trying to attack me verbally and vent infront of other people rather than try to communicate his issues in a constructive manner to where I could possibly help him. I ended the conversation after he began to tell me how stupid and idiotic I was for having to carry a firearm with me, and that that proved that I had no level of intelligence other than I just wanted to hurt people. That was a very frustrating meeting that I still remember very well, but I took from that everything positive that I could. Obviously the area needed more Civil type support to assist the people, but that also there were a few people in the area that were attempting to "sway" the atmospheric of the neighborhood towards a more violent relationship between the coaltion and the Iraqi's. This incident was the only verbal confrontation that I had during my 10 month stay in this section of Baghdad. The rest, I can say were more positive and all ended on good notes.
Typically speaking, the majority of Iraqi's that I met with were obviously upset about the slow pace of reconstruction efforts within their communities, and the slow workings of the Iraqi government. But, after I was able to spend some time with these people and walk them through the contract process, attitudes almost always changed. I also found, that most Iraqi's are unfamiliar with democratic principals. I found that one of Saddam's power tools was a lack of a good education available to the Iraqi people. With most people I had to explain basic democratic principals, such as; the citizens of a democratic nation have a voice or say in how they want their government to run, the people have the power in a true democracy. If you can imagine what it is like to try and explain a concept such as this to a people that have never been allowed to think for themselves, then you can imagine how difficult of a situation this was and still is.
And still even more Iraqi's have the percieved notion that once the coalition did over-throw Saddam's government that the country would magically be better. The reasoning behind this thought (as I was told on numerous occassions by various Iraqi's) is that because America is one of the wealthiest nations in the world and the "land of opportunity" that the U.S. Army would have billions of dollars immediately available to fix all of the infrastructure problems within Iraq. The problem that we ran into, was that the infrastructure was in such dire shape that we have to practically build new systems from scratch. Virtually all of the old or existing systems in place were irrepairable due to extreme negligence.
If I could give my opinion of how long it will be before things really start to make a turn for the better and the country starts to really move forward, I would have to say that we're about 10 years from a major change in the country. Right now we're working with people (adults) who have only experienced life under Saddam, how government works, how to deal with crime, etc. The real change, I think, will happen when the children have had an opportunity to learn and grow in a more opportunistic environment and begin to take over in the next 10 years or so. Unfortunately, I believe this to be a more realistic option than anything that I have seen presented by any of the world leaders or media. Everyone wants solutions to happen now, but now will only result in bandaid's that are only temporary. Leaving power vacuums for the next dictator to try and fill.
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